Why am I asking this question?
The recent loss of Twilighte who spent over 20 years fiddling with oric code highlights the issue of "why?".
For sure the Oric has no relevance in the modern world as a platform. In other words there is no realistic practical use of the oric. For sure the is no monetary reward. Back in the day it was for many a stepping stone to better things (jobs in computer industry) but why should we bother these days with an ancient platform?
Why spend over 20 years of your life on a fruitless exercise (some might say)
Yes, there is an intellectual reward for an individual. A challenge...can I achieve this or that effect?
The effort involved is monumental...only a few people realise this. Only a few people appreciate what it takes to do the things that Twilighte managed.
It's HARD WORK. Does it then become ART? No PRACTICAL use and no real PURPOSE but a few can APPRECIATE it for what it is? A few can ADMIRE the work while others scoff and dismiss it as irrelevant?
With that idea in mind should Twilighte take a well deserved seat next to the likes of say, Picasso or Rembrandt? Is that too much? Maybe so but we can all pick up a paintbrush and produce something recognizable. We can't all produce code. We can't all make our machines sing like he did. It takes effort and skill and hard work, you have to fight and overcome hurdles. Isn't that really what life is all about?
I really should stop drinking...
Is what we do important?
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barnsey123
- Flight Lieutenant
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Godzil
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Re: Is what we do important?
No don't stop drinking 
You are right, this is an art
You are right, this is an art
My Projects: Replic'Oric Project - StratoCumulus Project
Re: Is what we do important?
As I often said in the past, I'd rather make a demo or a game (or anything) that really please 5 persons, that spending the equivalent amount of time doing something that is so drown in a sea of similar things that nobody even notices.
The fact that what we are doing has or not any significance is totally irrelevant really: One could argue that making mobile phones or cars is more important than making Oric demos, but is it?
Most of what human make is pointless, and when it's not, it's just a small incremental bump built on top of what humanity already built, which perhaps will help the humanity go somewhat higher.
Truth is, most people nowadays don't know their neighbors, don't know why they live, why they do a particular job, why they are in a particular country: They just are at this point because some succession of events led them at this point.
By deciding to make a Viking Chess game on the Oric, you indeed decided to do something totally irrelevant, that possibly a grand total of 3 persons will look at the source code, 20 persons perhaps trying the game, and 100 watching the video on youtube after one year? Well, does that matter in any way?
By deciding to do that, you had to interact with people, shared some code, had discussions about how to make it better, some people talking about the visual look, or the AI, ... it's going to be released, and it's probably going to be available in the Oric Game base and stay on the internet forever (or until something bad happens), so you would have (like Twilighte) virtually achieved immortality by leaving behind something.
Most people don't.
Most people leave perhaps some descendants, they left biological traces of themselves, but they left nothing else: They will not be remembered for anything unique that can be uniquely associated to them: They have not written books, not painted great art, composed nice music. All they did was watch tv, read the newspaper, do the crosswords, perhaps do a bit of gardening, ... all perfectly worth doing things but which are in no way any better than having fun on the Oric.
By doing what you do on the Oric, you do something unique, something you have chosen to do, that people will enjoy and talk about.
Not many people, but enough so it counts.
And yeah, it's hard work, it's a form of craft, which like all crafts and arts take year to master. And Jonathan was a brilliant example of what hard work and patience can achieve
The fact that what we are doing has or not any significance is totally irrelevant really: One could argue that making mobile phones or cars is more important than making Oric demos, but is it?
Most of what human make is pointless, and when it's not, it's just a small incremental bump built on top of what humanity already built, which perhaps will help the humanity go somewhat higher.
Truth is, most people nowadays don't know their neighbors, don't know why they live, why they do a particular job, why they are in a particular country: They just are at this point because some succession of events led them at this point.
By deciding to make a Viking Chess game on the Oric, you indeed decided to do something totally irrelevant, that possibly a grand total of 3 persons will look at the source code, 20 persons perhaps trying the game, and 100 watching the video on youtube after one year? Well, does that matter in any way?
By deciding to do that, you had to interact with people, shared some code, had discussions about how to make it better, some people talking about the visual look, or the AI, ... it's going to be released, and it's probably going to be available in the Oric Game base and stay on the internet forever (or until something bad happens), so you would have (like Twilighte) virtually achieved immortality by leaving behind something.
Most people don't.
Most people leave perhaps some descendants, they left biological traces of themselves, but they left nothing else: They will not be remembered for anything unique that can be uniquely associated to them: They have not written books, not painted great art, composed nice music. All they did was watch tv, read the newspaper, do the crosswords, perhaps do a bit of gardening, ... all perfectly worth doing things but which are in no way any better than having fun on the Oric.
By doing what you do on the Oric, you do something unique, something you have chosen to do, that people will enjoy and talk about.
Not many people, but enough so it counts.
And yeah, it's hard work, it's a form of craft, which like all crafts and arts take year to master. And Jonathan was a brilliant example of what hard work and patience can achieve
Re: Is what we do important?
(Some) people are creative. I'm a musician, all be it not a very good one. For some musicians there is the urge to perform. You can go on stage,as I have done, and play your heart out. What do you get at the end of the say? Nothing much. The work is gone. Any pay we ever got went back into expenses etc. Playing music in itself might not be creative in that some people recreate the work of others - there are plenty of cover bands. Then there are improvisors who create something new on the spot but maybe within the structure of someone else's work, which is what I did. And there are those that create entirely new pieces.
Bands release albums. These day they don't get much financial reward. It's all about create something.
You wouldn't begrudge an artist the time they spent painting. Jonathan Bristow used the Oric as his pallette and brush. He had a number of unfinished works as he practised. I was just looking at some of his early work in BASIC with text games and simple drawings. Practising the craft is what we do to learn an instrument or to learn how to draw and paint.
Dbug and the demo gang created some amazing demos which showed things that could be done on the Oric that hadn't really been achieved before. Whilst I prefer the interactive aspect of computers I really appreciate the demos. They are like a work of art. A true piece of creativity.
Jonathan, of course was always writing new utilities which enabled him to produce better and better games. He shared these with other Oric users so they could benefit too. I think his last work TGS is available on here. A suit of graphic utilities used in games he was working on.
Art is something that fascinated us. The best pieces of art fetch astonishing amounts of money. Archeologists dig up old pots and jewellry which show the art of times gone by. The thing that stands out in art and music is a certain style. People appreciate the distinct character of particular artists and musicians.
The demos developed a style of their own. A blend of music a graphics which helped Jonathan develop the style of his later games.
Jonathan had a lot of help. In the early days he struggled to finish some of his projects. In later years he told me how people pulled his 'finished' games apart and listed all the faults and he had to go back over it and correct it all. It resulted in some almost flawless games of top notch quality. It might not have been achieved without the demos and interraction with fellow programmers.
Work is mundane. Everyday life is dull and pointless. Being creative and working on the Oric is something honourable, entertaining, pleasurable and if nothing else, keeps the craft alive.
Bands release albums. These day they don't get much financial reward. It's all about create something.
You wouldn't begrudge an artist the time they spent painting. Jonathan Bristow used the Oric as his pallette and brush. He had a number of unfinished works as he practised. I was just looking at some of his early work in BASIC with text games and simple drawings. Practising the craft is what we do to learn an instrument or to learn how to draw and paint.
Dbug and the demo gang created some amazing demos which showed things that could be done on the Oric that hadn't really been achieved before. Whilst I prefer the interactive aspect of computers I really appreciate the demos. They are like a work of art. A true piece of creativity.
Jonathan, of course was always writing new utilities which enabled him to produce better and better games. He shared these with other Oric users so they could benefit too. I think his last work TGS is available on here. A suit of graphic utilities used in games he was working on.
Art is something that fascinated us. The best pieces of art fetch astonishing amounts of money. Archeologists dig up old pots and jewellry which show the art of times gone by. The thing that stands out in art and music is a certain style. People appreciate the distinct character of particular artists and musicians.
The demos developed a style of their own. A blend of music a graphics which helped Jonathan develop the style of his later games.
Jonathan had a lot of help. In the early days he struggled to finish some of his projects. In later years he told me how people pulled his 'finished' games apart and listed all the faults and he had to go back over it and correct it all. It resulted in some almost flawless games of top notch quality. It might not have been achieved without the demos and interraction with fellow programmers.
Work is mundane. Everyday life is dull and pointless. Being creative and working on the Oric is something honourable, entertaining, pleasurable and if nothing else, keeps the craft alive.
Re: Is what we do important?
..on the Oric? Yes, and on any other old computer. People do it because it is fun and rewarding. Take it from me, modern programming is utterly boring. You rarely have to dream up some clever algorithm to get a job done; nowadays it is all about APIs and other high level stuff. People don't ask if you can code, they want to know if you know Swing (or A.N.Other stupid bloated API).
It's a shame.
Now, to that very good point about digging up ancient artefacts. What do you think the archaeological artefacts of the future are going to be? Sure there will be physical items, but there will also be digital things too. Recall the recent discovery of the source of the first ever web page. This is one example.
When that Ancient Greek bloke was turning out a pot he probably thought nothing of it. Yet these things are now prized beyond monetary value - who's to say the same won't be true of some 8 bit demos written for an obscure computing platform?
It's a shame.
Now, to that very good point about digging up ancient artefacts. What do you think the archaeological artefacts of the future are going to be? Sure there will be physical items, but there will also be digital things too. Recall the recent discovery of the source of the first ever web page. This is one example.
When that Ancient Greek bloke was turning out a pot he probably thought nothing of it. Yet these things are now prized beyond monetary value - who's to say the same won't be true of some 8 bit demos written for an obscure computing platform?
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ibisum
- Wing Commander
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Re: Is what we do important?
One thing that I always say, when people ask me why I work so hard to keep old computers functioning (I have a BeBox, an SGI O2, countless stuff recovered from dumpster-diving, an Atmos collection, etc.), is that there is simply too much OIL DEBT in your average piece of plastic junk, that to make it useless by throwing it out on the basis of some decision is, to me, a crime against humanity. The cost of producing our electronics is not just the price we paid for it - but the transportation costs, the manufacturing, etc. I measure this in an 'ethereal' oil debt - if it cost a lot of oil to produce, to discard it on the basis of fashion is criminal.
So thats why I keep working on old computers, to make sure they're around for future generations to play with, to learn from, and so on. Like it or not, but if you give an Oric Atmos to an average Java-cult computer grad, they'd have no idea what to do with it or how to make it useful - but give it to a computer hacker with that glint in his eye, and stand back: it will perform miracles. As we have witnessed here in the Oric scene.
And I think there is huge value in our scene here, proving by example, that old computers never die: their users do. We have to keep doing great things with the machines we have: they cost us the Earth, literally.
So thats why I keep working on old computers, to make sure they're around for future generations to play with, to learn from, and so on. Like it or not, but if you give an Oric Atmos to an average Java-cult computer grad, they'd have no idea what to do with it or how to make it useful - but give it to a computer hacker with that glint in his eye, and stand back: it will perform miracles. As we have witnessed here in the Oric scene.
And I think there is huge value in our scene here, proving by example, that old computers never die: their users do. We have to keep doing great things with the machines we have: they cost us the Earth, literally.
Re: Is what we do important?
I think that oric programming ,is art.
It is not "useful" but pleasure, sharing pleasure of discovering without thinking about tomorrow.
About the question "what I did, is it interesting for someone ?"
My answer is: "let's create even for a single person only before Nature destroy us"
Twilighte was creating programs for a little group and I thank him for that.
It is not "useful" but pleasure, sharing pleasure of discovering without thinking about tomorrow.
About the question "what I did, is it interesting for someone ?"
My answer is: "let's create even for a single person only before Nature destroy us"
Twilighte was creating programs for a little group and I thank him for that.
Re: Is what we do important?
I agree entirely. I used to be very proficient at coding in M/C on the Commodore 64. The Oric was my first computer but my dad sold it when I was only 12 and replacedkenneth wrote:I think that oric programming ,is art.
It is not "useful" but pleasure, sharing pleasure of discovering without thinking about tomorrow.
About the question "what I did, is it interesting for someone ?"
My answer is: "let's create even for a single person only before Nature destroy us"
Twilighte was creating programs for a little group and I thank him for that.
it with the C64. I would love to be be able to make my mark on the Oric community with my own game, but at 41 I don't know if I could learn the language again. The
C64 was easy to programme games for in M/C due to it's Sprites and Raster interrupts etc. The Oric is not so friendly.
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barnsey123
- Flight Lieutenant
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Re: Is what we do important?
Dave, get codingdave3622 wrote:I would love to be be able to make my mark on the Oric community with my own game, but at 41 I don't know if I could learn the language again
if I can do it at 49 you can do it at 41. It's hard on the oric getting things done but much more rewarding for that...
Sure there's mountains to climb but climb em while you still can and enjoy the view from the top.
Re: Is what we do important?
Just to add my two cents here.
I don't know if what we do is important or not. Well, at least it is important to our small community, which is more than what people can say about their usual activities. Anyway, at least for me, it is a rewarding experience. It is my hobby, and not stamp collecting, for instance. It is something that poses a challenge. Something that keeps my mind active. Something I use to learn, be creative, and to develop new skills.
The work of some is also art: take the demos for instance. Music, graphics, design and tech together to create something that moves the audience. My work is not art. It is more like a project. Dbug pointed this out when he speaks about how I work. I set an objective and slowly move towards achieving it, step by step, and do not stop until it is finished and polished enough (with its manual and everything) so I am pleased with it (or I am defeated). I find the process more rewarding than the actual end result.
And the best thing of all is that there are people out there who care about what you do. You interact with people from all over the world who appreciate what you do. You make friends. You feel proud of what you achieve and even get appreciation for it. What else would you ask for?
Is the work we do important to the development of mankind? Most probably not. Is it important to us? Indeed it is.
I don't know if what we do is important or not. Well, at least it is important to our small community, which is more than what people can say about their usual activities. Anyway, at least for me, it is a rewarding experience. It is my hobby, and not stamp collecting, for instance. It is something that poses a challenge. Something that keeps my mind active. Something I use to learn, be creative, and to develop new skills.
The work of some is also art: take the demos for instance. Music, graphics, design and tech together to create something that moves the audience. My work is not art. It is more like a project. Dbug pointed this out when he speaks about how I work. I set an objective and slowly move towards achieving it, step by step, and do not stop until it is finished and polished enough (with its manual and everything) so I am pleased with it (or I am defeated). I find the process more rewarding than the actual end result.
And the best thing of all is that there are people out there who care about what you do. You interact with people from all over the world who appreciate what you do. You make friends. You feel proud of what you achieve and even get appreciation for it. What else would you ask for?
Is the work we do important to the development of mankind? Most probably not. Is it important to us? Indeed it is.
Re: Is what we do important?
You couldn't believe for what I tend to use the Euphoric for...
Besides the usage in my everyday life (like for tracking my expenses, keeping my phone-numbers safe, writing my diary, and so on) - a friend of mine (about two months ago) developed a new (much easier) mathematical method for calculating the surface of the ellipse...
I then used Oric Atmos (Euphoric) at my USB (flash) drive to test his equation. And I found it to be wrong.
Testing and (dis)approving his mathematical equation was done on Euphoric, running at 12Mhz in the period of time: 30 minutes.
Couldn't done it without the Euphoric. So there you go
Don't ever think that it is not important!
Besides the usage in my everyday life (like for tracking my expenses, keeping my phone-numbers safe, writing my diary, and so on) - a friend of mine (about two months ago) developed a new (much easier) mathematical method for calculating the surface of the ellipse...
I then used Oric Atmos (Euphoric) at my USB (flash) drive to test his equation. And I found it to be wrong.
Testing and (dis)approving his mathematical equation was done on Euphoric, running at 12Mhz in the period of time: 30 minutes.
Couldn't done it without the Euphoric. So there you go
Don't ever think that it is not important!
Re: Is what we do important?
It's a good discussion, but the answer is clear if only we talk about it. If we join other people we will see a range of opinions. After all it's a point of self pleasure. I liked my Pravetz 8D when I was 17. Now I'm 42 and like it not less. It's like to throw away a friend just because it's old. The other reason for me is to show the children my computer love. After years today children will don't know the pre-windows era. With a little help of strange person like me they will see and touch a beautiful piece of history. You can see some of the pictures of the first retro-computer exhibition in Bulgaria organized by me two months ago. Sorry you can't see the children eyes. They were amazing. Nobody say "What an ugly graphics". All of the children were amazed to touch something so old and close to our life.
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Last edited by jorodr on Wed Jul 10, 2013 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Is what we do important?
I totally agree with my friend jorodr!
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ibisum
- Wing Commander
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Re: Is what we do important?
I recently set up an Atmos with a disk drive, for my boys - 6 years old and 3 years old. They both love the machine, even though it doesn't do a damn thing without them typing stuff in. The oldest has a sheet of paper with a list of words on it (he's just beginning to learn to read and write), things like "PING ZAP EXPLODE SHOOT PAPER INK" and he gets a lot of joy out of typing these in, over and over, and making the computer do these things. Soon enough, he'll progress to BASIC programming - I already type in simple "what is your name?" -> if name=kidsname then gosub POW!!!! programs, and he tries really hard to understand. Won't be long until he's asking me about how to use the assembler, I suppose.
The 3-year old has the insane ability to find a bug in any computer you give to him - or a 'backdoor' or 'some feature nobody knew about'. Within a minute of touching the Atmos, he had colors and graphics up on the screen - not by programming, but rather by 'monkey-typing'. That skill, if it doesn't wear off, is going to do him very well in the years to come, and he'll get an Atmos of his own soon enough, in his corner of the room.
(Neither of my boys are interested in their OLPC's any more .. they'd much rather play with the old "machine with the words" for now)
Soon I'll set up a disk drive with all the top-100 games from oric.org for them to explore. That's going to be a whole new world for all of us, because there are titles that I've yet to play, properly, on a real Oric at all. So that is extremely exciting.
None of this activity would be possible without this community - all of you guys - and the hard work you put into it. I think its very important for you guys to know that your efforts are highly appreciated, and that you do have users who have assigned a value to your work in the LOVE scale. Without a doubt, my boys are going to know how to program an Oric by the time they get through their first years of school, and I don't think that is in any way going to reduce the positive effect they'll have on the world. I'm sure my boys will know there is a life in computing outside the "DVD" and "Video Game" and "Web Browsing" applications that most of their peers know how to perform ..
The 3-year old has the insane ability to find a bug in any computer you give to him - or a 'backdoor' or 'some feature nobody knew about'. Within a minute of touching the Atmos, he had colors and graphics up on the screen - not by programming, but rather by 'monkey-typing'. That skill, if it doesn't wear off, is going to do him very well in the years to come, and he'll get an Atmos of his own soon enough, in his corner of the room.
(Neither of my boys are interested in their OLPC's any more .. they'd much rather play with the old "machine with the words" for now)
Soon I'll set up a disk drive with all the top-100 games from oric.org for them to explore. That's going to be a whole new world for all of us, because there are titles that I've yet to play, properly, on a real Oric at all. So that is extremely exciting.
None of this activity would be possible without this community - all of you guys - and the hard work you put into it. I think its very important for you guys to know that your efforts are highly appreciated, and that you do have users who have assigned a value to your work in the LOVE scale. Without a doubt, my boys are going to know how to program an Oric by the time they get through their first years of school, and I don't think that is in any way going to reduce the positive effect they'll have on the world. I'm sure my boys will know there is a life in computing outside the "DVD" and "Video Game" and "Web Browsing" applications that most of their peers know how to perform ..